Expat Exposed

Re: Enough is enough

BurritoIncident — Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:00 pm

Author: BurritoIncident

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:00 pm

alrockliffe wrote:I am actually not quite sure whether his views are grapeshot or specific. If the argument is that teaching English is a joke job

It is a joke job. The holidays are good, but the whole job is a holiday. It requires a person to a. act like a clown b. speak with grade 5 English c. work with some of the most mediocre people there are ie other ESL teachers.

The link you provided was insightful - as it has a number of articles of violence against teachers in that part of the world where there is a high concentration of kiwis. http://www.expatexposed.com...topic.php?p=43129

Advertising is also a joke job but one that is extremely competitive, and where most ESL teachers wouldn't last for long. It has a totally different atmosphere from the water kettle and spoon in the coffee tea room of the ESL world. Sport actually requires a lot of skill to succeed, if you want to make money doing it.

Re: Enough is enough

alrockliffe — Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:40 pm

Author: alrockliffe

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:40 pm

kiwi_abroad wrote:As a fellow forum member I ask, politely, that this discussion cease.

BI - you are expressing your opinions, and of course you are welcome to them. However I'd like you to consider Forum Rule 3 - "Be considerate", rule 6 - "Make every effort to provide details and facts", and rule 7 - "Refute the facts, not the opinion."

This discussion has fallen to the level of opinion against opinion and is becoming personal. Further, I am struggling to see how this discussion supports the philosophy of the board - to be a one-stop resource for all prospective migrants to NZ who want to know the downsides of life in this country.

Perhaps we could step away for a little while? A flame war is just around the corner (or by some measures has already started).

I am actually not quite sure whether his views are grapeshot or specific. If the argument is that teaching English is a joke job - then we can only assume that he thinks English is a joke language, or, more insidiously, that people are not worthy of learning the language. The action of imparting knowledge, however that manifests itself, would only be considered a joke by someone who is against education - and that is such a ridiculous standpoint that it is not even worth debating. Why? Well anyone who thought that education was a joke, would presumably have the conviction of their beliefs and remain uneducated. That debate would be a little short on insightful comment.

We face the same jaundiced views all the time - 'oh teachers have such great holidays'. My response varies between 'yes it is great', to 'step up to the plate dear friend'. If they are truly interested, I would ask them to read the following link:

http://www.theteachersarebl...viourproblems.htm

Then I would ask them if they would like an application form for the local teacher training course. Never had anyone take up that offer.

If one is going to take pot shots at a person because of their job, it would be useful for some balance. Some could think of any number of jobs, from Sport to Advertising, which would appear underneath Teaching in their own 'league table of usefulness to society careers'. In this world of death by Powerpoint and league tables, I wonder why that particular table has never been published? Because no-one would have the arrogance.

Re: Enough is enough

BurritoIncident — Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:54 am

Author: BurritoIncident

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:54 am

Thank you for reminding me that I am entitled to my opinion. Well, of course, it isn't just opinion that I was putting on the table, but rather, many unsaid but near universal truths and facts about that particular business, ie ESL.

However, I must express thanks for your post, as you have demonstrated that unlike true professionals in real jobs, ESL teachers do not enjoy a good robust discussion about these matters. The real question is - for fear of what? The whole world realizes its a joke job for people who want a holiday with the pretense of working, so what's the big deal?

By the way, I will now tell my children and everyone to become an ESL teacher and get a Master of Linguistics - so that they can follow in your footsteps for the dream job, the highly acclaimed job that is ESL. You've convinced me.

Enough is enough

kiwi_abroad — Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:22 am

Author: kiwi_abroad

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:22 am

As a fellow forum member I ask, politely, that this discussion cease.

BI - you are expressing your opinions, and of course you are welcome to them. However I'd like you to consider Forum Rule 3 - "Be considerate", rule 6 - "Make every effort to provide details and facts", and rule 7 - "Refute the facts, not the opinion."

This discussion has fallen to the level of opinion against opinion and is becoming personal. Further, I am struggling to see how this discussion supports the philosophy of the board - to be a one-stop resource for all prospective migrants to NZ who want to know the downsides of life in this country.

Perhaps we could step away for a little while? A flame war is just around the corner (or by some measures has already started).

Re: Kiwi expat in Bangkok : why I won't come back

BurritoIncident — Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:20 am

Author: BurritoIncident

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:20 am

ConcernedKiwi wrote:
It seems you are saying people like this are idiots - and couldn't hold down a job back home. I agree.

No, just that by and large most of them couldnt do anything of worth except convince a bunch of foreigners that their English is somehow adequate when in many cases it's laughable.

Quote:
Unfortunately, I think in your enthusiasm to point this valid idea out - you've caught up quite a few people in your net.

Unfortunately, it's a near universal truth (what I said, not what you said)

Quote:I was also an ESL teacher for 9 years in asia. The people I worked with don't bear any resemblance to the two cases you've brought up.

But I bet that all of them couldnt do anything of worth except convince a bunch of foreigners that their English is somehow adequate when in many cases it's laughable.

Quote:
For example, are female ESL teachers also equally inadequate?

In terms of what they do for a living? Definitely.

Quote:Is a guy in the ME who may well have a Masters Degree in TEFL also inadequate? What if he held a PhD? Many people in the ME do.

Yes. A degree in Art History is more difficult, and less useless. Anyone with a PhD in that area teaching ESL is practically a joke. PhDs are useless when anyone with a spare month or two could learn how to teach ESL just as effectively by learning online. Also, anyone who has taught for a month would have more knowledge than most PhDs. PhD is only special to some people usually teachers like you who are in the business of selling education. Smart people realize that it's a not worth the effort unless you want to feel special or some such thing.

Quote:
Like it or not BI - there is a valid career path here. Your point that it's difficult to go back to a normal job after going down the TEFL track for a while, is valid.

Yes - It's difficult because 1. ESL makes people lazy 2. ESL people dont work in the real world 3. No one would hire one of these jokers except McDonalds

Quote:However, to say that all TEFL teachers are inadequate losers is bizarre.

Well, it would be better to say that they are universally either inadequate or losers, sometimes both.[/quote]

Re: Kiwi expat in Bangkok : why I won't come back

ConcernedKiwi — Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:46 pm

Author: ConcernedKiwi

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:46 pm

I think I'm seeing a pattern here: the two specific examples brought up refer to ESL guys in asia.

The OP's link to a bangkok western guy living a self professed "alternative" lifestyle whose blog shows many links to hookers' websites - and a newspaper report of a western guy trying to extort a Chinese girl of 100,000RMB.

It seems you are saying people like this are idiots - and couldn't hold down a job back home. I agree.

Unfortunately, I think in your enthusiasm to point this valid idea out - you've caught up quite a few people in your net.

I was also an ESL teacher for 9 years in asia. The people I worked with don't bear any resemblance to the two cases you've brought up.

For example, are female ESL teachers also equally inadequate?

Is a guy in the ME who may well have a Masters Degree in TEFL also inadequate? What if he held a PhD? Many people in the ME do.

Like it or not BI - there is a valid career path here. Your point that it's difficult to go back to a normal job after going down the TEFL track for a while, is valid.

However, to say that all TEFL teachers are inadequate losers is bizarre.

Re: Kiwi expat in Bangkok : why I won't come back

BurritoIncident — Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:23 pm

Author: BurritoIncident

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:23 pm

ConcernedKiwi wrote:I'm also an ESL teacher in the ME - do your broad stereotypes about English teachers apply to me too?

Not really. Only to people who are so desperate to escape their own country they regard joining the other hordes of Western inadequates who have no real career at home or otherwise and who spend their life acting like a clown and speaking like a person with grade 5 English as a job worthy of being proud of. ME, Asia, South America - different places - same inadequate douches.

Re: Kiwi expat in Bangkok : why I won't come back

ConcernedKiwi — Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:52 pm

Author: ConcernedKiwi

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:52 pm

I'm also an ESL teacher in the ME - do your broad stereotypes about English teachers apply to me too?

Clarification

alrockliffe — Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:07 pm

Author: alrockliffe

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:07 pm

BurritoIncident wrote:

English teachers are some of the most poorly educated and smug expats I have met in my travels, that's all. It's like a default job for people who otherwise can't get a real job.

"English teachers" - Do you mean English people who are teachers, or teachers of the English language?

Could you please define and expand on your interpretation of the word 'smug'?

Don't get me wrong - people are quite at liberty to think what they like, it is just that I prefer to know what they are actually thinking, so I can make my own judgement about you, which of course, you equally would not mind.

Re: Kiwi expat in Bangkok : why I won't come back

Buffalo Boy — Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:17 pm

Author: Buffalo Boy

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:17 pm

All I can say is that I much prefer being a clown in Fantasyland than a Troll in New Zealand.

Adieu.

Re: Kiwi expat in Bangkok : why I won't come back

BurritoIncident — Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:14 am

Author: BurritoIncident

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:14 am

Buffalo Boy wrote:And you still can't understand my point about car accidents- The people I know were treated fairly. They were not at any disadvantage because they were foreigners. Their cars were covered by insurance and got fixed. What exactly do you think happens?

You said the expats were given the benefit of the doubt because you "witnessed" two events where this occurred.

Quote:
And what does go on in courtrooms and hospitals?

[/quote]

Nothing you would understand.

Just think about the limits of your self professed knowledge a little more. We all know that ESL is one of the biggest joke jobs there is, and if you like it great. But don't tell us how wonderful your life has become because of it. We actually have lives without having to act like clowns with grade 5 English.

Re: Kiwi expat in Bangkok : why I won't come back

Buffalo Boy — Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:32 am

Author: Buffalo Boy

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:32 am

Well like I said I'm starting to think it's you since you're the world's expert on ESL.

And you still can't understand my point about car accidents- The people I know were treated fairly. They were not at any disadvantage because they were foreigners. Their cars were covered by insurance and got fixed. What exactly do you think happens?

And what does go on in courtrooms and hospitals?

Re: Kiwi expat in Bangkok : why I won't come back

Buffalo Boy — Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:30 am

Author: Buffalo Boy

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:30 am

Well we're going round in circles now because I say you haven't given any evidence either.

Re: Kiwi expat in Bangkok : why I won't come back

BurritoIncident — Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:28 am

Author: BurritoIncident

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:28 am

Hey Bro, is this you?

Re: Kiwi expat in Bangkok : why I won't come back

BurritoIncident — Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:02 am

Author: BurritoIncident

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:02 am

Buffalo Boy wrote:
Here's your fifth grade reading level at work.

I completed year 10. What I did say was that a person who had completed year 5 could do your job.

Quote: I said people were treated fairly. When I said that the police would give expats the benefit of the doubt I was saying that they would not be treated unfairly by the police automatically siding with the local. Now, that assumed a certain level of knowledge about the Gulf, since you claim to know more than me.

You still will not answer the question. You said that it was fair, then that you didn't know about it, then you know of two instances where expats are given preferential treatment.

Because you have seen two instances of preferential treatment, doesn't mean that the system is somehow fair. Unless you are a lawyer or doctor seeing what happens behind the scenes when things go bad, I doubt you would understand what this means.

You did see those two instances for yourself, didnt you?

Quote:Now you say you don't know and I'm the one who lives here. Don't you think that living here gives me some slight advantage in knowing how things work in Oman, and whether or not it's a nice place to live? You're right, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors at the hospital. What is it? I was at the hospital a couple of weeks ago but I forgot to look behind all the closed doors.

You live in a fantasy world where your newly adopted home is perfect. You think that police will give you the benefit of the doubt based on two instances. You have no direct knowledge of what happens in a courtroom , surgery or behind the scenes elsewhere. You would probably believe all of the propaganda - and yes - every country does this. And yet you acknowledge that drivers are dangerous. That should get you thinking about society. They are your children - and it's your decision. I am just saying there are safer and better places to make money, but you obviously think that your "career" is a good one and it may well be the only thing you can do and the only place where you would be regarded as useful or impressive.

Quote:
I know you hate Kiwis but I bet they love you. Really. Kiwis love people who are easy to wind up and boy, you are. I bet they have a great time taking the piss out of you.

I don't hate anyone, but recognize douches who cannot tell the boundaries of the limits of their own knowledge. That is something you didn't like me pointing out.

Quote:All I see in your postings is hate hate, hate. You hate uneducated people, you hate education, you hate Kiwis, you hate Bangkok and you hate the Middle East. That's a lot of hate. What happened to you?

If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything will look like a nail. Believe it or not Mr Kiwi, there are degrees and nuances between liking something and disliking it. Pointing out that the ME isn't perfect and a place where political stability can not be taken for granted shouldn't be regarded as a form of hate, but as a matter of interest, even if it seems to be your life decision to stay there and talk it up.

Quote:I must thank you for this stimulating conversation. This is exactly why I joined this forum, because I used to be just like you. I used to hate and whine about stuff just like you do, and now I can see just how pathetic it is.

This isn't really stimulating at all because I was hoping you would give us some more facts to back up your assertions.

Quote:
Cheers bro!

Can I call you bro? We've been through so much together I feel like you're my bro now.

[/quote]

You can do what you like - but I am not an ESL clown - so don't expect me to speak to you like your brain dead colleagues might.