Before Wednesday, 28th of November, this was our plan:

Seed the search engines. Ask sadder (or madder) and wiser migrants posting on other forums to share their story with us. Let migrants who want to find us.

On Wednesday, TV ONE called. I agreed to an interview, thinking it was by phone or e-mail. When the word 'cameraman' came up, I reflexively opened my mouth to say no. I don't like being photographed, filmed or recorded. I've spent most of my adult life using initials instead of my full name. The idea of sending my name and face out of control, particularly in a city where people already seemed to dislike me, did not appeal to me or my husband Peter.

But then there was that whole issue of why we put this site up.

The migration experience has been a little like a rough beating for all of us. What made it worse was the way many other migrants, as well as locals, were on hair-trigger for anything perceived as criticism, and kicked us while we were down. From our ignominious position, we saw others like us, and found that despite differences in nationality and background, the stories were remarkably similar.

There was a lot of shame and guilt, and these feelings isolated people like us from social support. I also remembered too well how I'd felt when researching NZ, eager to disregard the negatives, taking the kickers' words over the kickee. I wouldn't have listened, unless the negatives were shown to me not in bits and pieces, but in force.

We wanted to do something. We wanted to make some use of what we had learned the hard way. We wanted to help, and be helped. TV would get the word out to people who could use a site like this.

I said yes to the interview, and we prepared for a spike in site traffic. Even as I wrote the e-mails to all 25-plus members, I thought, Why are we on national TV? Why is this considered controversial enough to cover? We're a tiny grassroots site talking about a very boring subject, we're cable access material, not national 6 o'clock news.

The spike came. Oh, did it ever. So did another phone call, this time from Breakfast. We agreed, because I had heard from a few people that the news article had been biased. I don't think any of the moderators got much done that evening and night. I went to the studio at 6:40AM without having slept a wink. I can't quite remember what I said. I do remember wondering if this was just a continuation of the vitriol that I'd been reading and sorting all night. I remember the anchors chatting about the yeti and Loch Ness monster before my segment, and thinking in sleep-deprived fit of mirth, Hey, I'm the third monster. But it was over quickly, and I went home reflecting that it hadn't gone well.

However I acquitted myself, it did bring in people. Peter and I had tea and toast with Trisha and her Peter. TV ONE called again, and we did another segment. I still hadn't slept, and I had been on national TV in New Zealand 3 times in 2 days.

What do I know right now, with actual work I'm paid to do piling up guiltily on my desktop? That Expat Exposed was a right idea. The very fact that we were considered controversial enough to cover so intensively tells a story. It's a reaction you'd expect of a village perhaps, rather than an entire First World country in 2007. Was it worth it for me personally? I don't know, but I have to believe that it was. It doesn't feel good to discover people running me down by name on unrelated forums. They don't even know me. They read what they want into my interview appearances. "Bitter", "obviously has chips on her shoulders", "lying". I've never had any words but congratulations for people who are happy here, whether native- or foreign-born. But the kickers demand more: that we be happy and grateful, or shut the hell up. Conformity and obedience. Is this the coin that a full admission to New Zealand society is paid in?

Which part feels good? When I see migrants who'd felt alone, meeting and making friends. When I see Kiwis who see problems with their society having a productive discussion. Even when I see people tell their stories of pain and marginalization, because, as one poster said, it represents catharsis. And especially when I see what wonderful luck we had meeting friends like Peter, Trisha and Hannah, and Ray, now back in the U.S.

So what's next for us? The activity will level off. The site is brand new, and will become what members need of it. We're thinking about establishing more usergroups, with associated semi-private forums, perhaps according to lateral profiles like "Parents" or "Teachers" instead of by nationality or location. We'd like to organize things so good posts get the views they deserve. So please check the "Support" forum for polls we might be running on what to implement, or post any suggestions you may have.

Thank you for your time,

Wintersmith

We would like to thank TVNZ.

That's disingenuous, so I'm striking that. The coverage was intentionally biased, much of what we said of value was cut, and it's only because I turned out not to be the tongue-tied civilian they expected that any of the message got through. Any debt for the massive publicity is paid in full by my loss of privacy and the fury I've been exposed to. Ta.

This is a lesson in thinking before speaking.



If I moved to the USA and had a bad time I don't think I would go on a breakfast programme and call all Americans bigots. In essence this is what you have done here in New Zealand.



What sort of reaction did you think you'd get? A ticker tape parade where you hand out bigot T-shirts to all the kids?



No. You get angry New Zealanders. Big surprise. New Zealand may have racists , louts , stupid children and many other social ills.The big question is: "Why are you telling me about it when I'm eating my Cocopops. What do you want me to do about it?!?!"

May I ask the following questions.



What are your skills and qualifications?

What is your occupation?

Is there demand for your occupation in Christchurch or the rest of the country for that matter?



If the answer to that is no, either you didn't do your research properly or you were seriously mislead, in which I am very sorry if you were.



If there is demand for your occupation, there could be any number of reasons for that. I don't know you personally but Americans have a reputation as being load and arrogant, your posts do nothing to refute that reputation. This kind of attitude may demand respect in NZ but it won't in NZ. This is especially true for Christchurch.

Sure is qualified at shooting her mouth off.

I admire Wintersmith's choices it takes real guts to put yourself out there on the firing line, how many of you could or would say the same?

Vilification by definition tends to be a way of life here, and not primarily because there is nothing better to do rather, rather it is the culmination of years of indoctrination, in relation specifically for the need to blindly support ones country, not by voracious self promotion but rather by glorious defence.

History has shown us that thinking( that directly conflicts with the current mob mentality) is often met with rabid hostility and a lot of the times death. It's easy to understand why simple things like statements or opinions, stir up such emotion in people to the point where they feel the need to vilify the speaker/s. The answer is simple, people have a tenuous grip on what is reality for them at the best of times, often in developing nations it is a more hard fought process than those in the developed world, and the price thats paid in getting there only to find out your opinion is not only wrong, it is downright destructive, challenges the very fabric of the world people live in and that leaves them feeling out of control and so they fight.

So understanding that is a reality in the world we live in, also understand that nothing good comes easy and without action. The general malaise of society as a whole is in direct relation to the overwhelming negativity of world views portrayed in the media. If you were to believe everything on that sqark bix or in the papers the world we live in is a horrible and violent place. However it is again tied to the social engineering policies of various governments for whom keeping their people at home and working is in the best interests of their pocket books. The best way for most of them to do this is to propagate fear within the populus, see the world and other races as something to fear, and then they never leave home. This is not an unbased statement, moreover it has been slowly ascertained by direct experience with the locals of varying countries, including here. Just as a test, ask the next supermarket worker what they think of travel, or your 19 year old hairdresser. The response may surprise you if you have traveled overseas and will most definitely reinforce your world views if you have not.

I would like to finish by saying that perception is projection, and whatever you believe will be true for you. I share a similar view to wintersmith, and that is true and real for me. What is true and real for others is indeed the same. So at the end of the day everything reduces down to zero and all we have left are our thoughts and opionions, so what are we to do with them? Well I guess the only way to feel empowered at the end of the day is to take action. If you don't like the opinions here, and don't believe them to be true, ask yourself how do I treat foriegners in my country? Have I ever yelled or thought 'stupid " insert race here" driver? Have I ever talked loud and slowly because I thought someone from a foriegn country couldn't understand me? I have I ever made someone feel inferior because they should know our ways and felt the need to teach them a lesson, but treating them poorly? How many foriegn friends do I have that I could invite over for a bbq? That might be feeling lonely in their new home. I have I really considered that a foriegn born job applicant may be the best thing for my company?Without the thought of the perception of your business for having foriegners. If we even tried one of these things a week, im sure peoples experiences would be vastly different. Finally the following saying (in business as in life) is true. A happy person has a mouth and 10 friends, an unhappy one has a mouth and 50.

Yet again my fellow New Zealanders are doing the job for this website.



I've now watched all of the TV news items repeatedly and am yet to find anything that can be construed, fairly, as stating or suggesting that all New Zealanders are bigots.



We really do not take criticism well do we?

_________________
Ego regressit ut meus terra.
Ego video.
Ego despero.
Ego decessit.

Wintersmith, I watched it on youtube and let me say I am convinced your efforts will help NZ become a tad more mature and polished. Immigration for NZ Govt is primarily about money just like it is for all the nations looking for immigrants to come live and contribute to their economies. So if NZ Govt is out of touch with what the immigrants go through once in the country then they must know, take necessary action and ensure the people who come feel respected and welcomed,not ridiculed and abused by intolerance, bigotry and parochial policies of employers. Good for you to stand firm and stand tall.



For those who say why make noise, my qu to them is 'WHY NOT"?? Who is going to tell you there are issues you would rather not deal with? Who will help you get better so that your country is able to compete for a scarce resource "immigrant" to keep your nation running? Thanks for your effort Wintersmith, Trisha and the rest of the crew. I say Keep your shtick on the ice (as steve smith of red green show says)

Last edited by canadaeh on Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:04 am

Rabidkiwi, what do we want you to do about it? Well, acknowledging that there is a problem and trying to engage others in civilised discourse on how to move NZ towards a more accepting society would be a good step. Acting on those convictions would be even better.



Personal attacks, snide remarks and handwaving things away, on the other hand, merely justifies Wintersmith's stance that there is something rotten going on.

Rabidkiwi - How many Americans do you actually know & have you even been there. Your comments are just another example of ignorance and sterotyping. You should also be aware that most people that move here are educated, skilled and very qualified in their field of work. Believe me we have done our research, I myself received a monthly newsletter from nzinsider for 2 years before moving back here so I would be informed. We have been promised jobs only to find out when getting here that NZers do not want to hire foreigners.

wintersmith, you did well. kudos to you.



why are the angry kiwis reacting with personal attacks?

This, in a nutshell, is New Zealand. A rather small village.



Why the vitriol from Kiwi's? I don't know. I think it is because they have an incredibly shaky sense of self. That is all I can come up with.



How can you explain the overreaction any other way?



"Get on the next flight out of here, we don't need you!"



Well, actually, NZ does need migrants. Without migrants NZ would go down the toilet. That is not a personal attack, it's a fact.



So, it's not really an option to tell us to get on the next flight out of here.



We are not here to build the railways. The chinese have already done it.



We are qualified professionals. With useful skills to help this country, and ourselves.



It's called a win/win situation.



I will tell you this : if you started a web site in England about Kiwi's who were fed up with England, your typical reaction would be : Yeah, so what?



As I am sure it would be Australia, Canada, USA, Ireland, or anywhere else.



The fact it made it onto the 6 O'clock news speaks volumes. Slow news week? No disrespect towards this site, but c'mon, there are more important things happening in the world right now.



But, nope, it is still important for johnny foreigner to give New Zealanders kudo's at every given opportunity. It helps them puff up their chests and believe.



A constant refrain you will hear : "What do you think of New Zealand?"



I have never heard this asked of me in other foreign countries. Or, if I have, with as much riding on the answer as here in New Zealand.

Agreed on almost all points. You know, I have had the distinct feeling, since Monday, that this site is like a needle threatening to pop an overinflated bubble.

Do you recall when Gwyneth Paltrow commented on London being dirty and service bad? It was all over the media (worldwide no less), and she received a resounding "If you don't like it, go home!" from all over Britain - not least of all the newspapers. The headline in the Daily Mail in fact reads "If you don't like it, then go home Gwynnie!"



Do you recall when Sienna Miller bagged Pittsburgh? Again, it was all over the media and accompanied by a very strong helping of "If you don't like it, go home!". Letters to the Editor, Editorials, you name it. Pittsburgh spoke.



Despite these examples (just two well known ones off the top of my head), the blinders some people on this site are wearing unfortunately cause them to perceive anything a New Zealander says or does to be a solely NZ-trait, rather than just being the 'human condition'. Reading many of the posts here, you'd think we were the only nation to have ever uttered those words, and that no other country's people would react in any way, shape or form to inflammatory criticism. Rubbish. See above. Google it. Whatever.



My personal view? You migrate here and have problems - tell us about them. You migrate here to pick problems - go home. I've seen examples of both on this forum, but more so the latter.



Posts based on nothing more than statistics or presumptions - for example "our youth are killing themselves because we can't fulfill their dreams", "thousands are leaving for Australia, so it must be a bad place", or "we have X degree of childhood obesity, so it's therefore a bad place to raise kids". Come on. These posts are based on NO personal experience whatsoever, and serve NO purpose other than to run down this country. They certainly don't help prospective migrants! They're not THE FACTS, they're nothing more than biased, inflammatory tripe.



How about people stick to actual experiences they've had, and quit with trying to "prove" just how bad it is here? I'm genuinely interested to hear about the problems people have had, but what I'm sick of is people scrambling to point out our every flaw. That will gain you respect in no country on earth - and 99% of the garbage being bandied about here relates in no way to legitimate migrant issues.

so, it's not a fact then that 23,906 kiwi's left New Zealand and moved to OZ?



I wonder how many ozzies moved to NZ? Certainly not 23,906.



I take from that two things. A hell of a lot of kiwi's think OZ makes more sense than NZ. In every way.



Actually, little story. I worked in Brisbane for 3 months this year and on the way out I was stood behind an expat kiwi in the airport check in line, who was from Wellington.



We got talking as you do.



It was one of those really nasty days which could have influenced her response.



I asked her if she would ever come back to Wellington.



She looked at me as if I was half mad and said : "No way!"



For the record, do I hate New Zealand and run it down at every opportunity? No, I do not.



Do I praise it to my friends and family. Certainly.



Do i believe it is the best place on Earth. No, but then again, where is.



Do I believe it has a few problems. Sure.



Do I believe it is neccessary to not talk about them in case I come across as a whinging pom. No.



Do I believe I will stay here, indefinetly? God, I hope not.

Again I am flummoxed by an EE assailant. No really. I don't even think my brain is from the same planet as yours.



Do you mean that you would like to listen to real problems, but not to projected problems? How would you know without listening? You visit this site and read its narratives to determine that most of the them are not worth reading? Well then, service rendered. You are now wise enough not to bother.

again some of the nay-sayers fail to see the point.



we like new zealand, that is why we chose to come here.



we are expressing our experiences that not everything is as peachy and wonderful as it could be.



we are not putting anyone down, not putting new zealand down.



we are merely saying there are two sides to everything. good and bad.

Wellington-Rage - I'm not denying anything. I *know* lots of us are going to Australia. That has always been the case, and always will be. Every year however, more permanent and long term migrants arrive in NZ than people leaving permanently. By your reckoning, this therefore means that a hell of a lot of people think NZ makes more sense than their own country. "In every way". Nobody has pointed that out. Why not? Because it doesn't serve their needs of course. Hey, I've considered going to Australia myself - but certainly not because I perceive it to be better in every way. It is bigger though, and that's one fact we can never compete with. There will ALWAYS be more opportunities there. A lot of people come from the Islands to New Zealand for the very same reason.



The last thing I would do however is go over to Australia, expect it to be perfect and then start picking holes in it. If I'd been treated badly, sure I'd absolutely post about that. That's where I seem to differ from many people here, who seem intent on picking holes purely for the sake of it - because they've had a bad experience. i.e. Wintersmith posting how bad a place NZ may be to raise kids, when she doesn't even have children herself! The same could be said about ANY country on earth if you put your mind to it. Precisely what does that achieve? Nothing.



Vitamin - Again, I make what I feel to be a well thought out and reasoned post and all you can do is call me an "assailant"? Makes a change from "troll" I guess. So much for this "intellectual discussion" we're told is so prevalent in other countries and yet sadly lacking in New Zealand... To answer your question, No. Clearly that is not at all what I mean.



What I mean is that this forum is full of people with an axe to grind. Okay, that's a given. Fine. Rather than sticking to the facts of WHY they have an axe to grind however, a whole lot of them are pulling all manner of news headlines, statistical data, goodness knows what else to "prove" how bad this place is. Judging by some posters, you'd think NZ was a poverty-stricken chaos-ridden hole, where everybody who doesn't kill themselves leaves for Australia. Is that the truth? Really? These inflammatory posts really achieve nothing.



As I've said before, a damning report could be written about ANY country on earth. It's not hard. What does it achieve? Nothing. How about people actually tell us how THEY have found New Zealand? Surely that would be more helpful than regurgitated statistics and news headlines skewed and twisted to represent how bad it is here? Some of the "pro-EE" posts on here are just ludicrous and insulting to anybody with a shred of intelligence. Our youth are killing themselves because our country doesn't offer the same future they'd get in Europe or the USA? Umm no. If you can't see the flawed logic there, then yes our brains are on different planets.

Yes and they are written all the time. Open your local newspaper lately? Write to your local newspaper lately?







This site is chock full of people telling us how THEY have found New Zealand. If these people want to include facts and figures in their posts, great. It's up to you, the reader, to take them with a grain of salt instead of a heaping helping of personal offence.







I have read numerous articles in the NZ press about the high rates of depression and suicide in NZ relative to other OECD countries. Would you rather we leave the facts and figures out of our posts so that you can then assail (yes assail) us for a lack of objective data?







Glad we could finally establish a point of agreement.

for giving us a support forum to share the difficult experiences some of us have had, for which many of us have simply blamed ourselves - not good for anyone's mental health. Many of these posts put a smile on my face, and even in the shorter, blunt ones there is a lot to be found between the lines.

I guess I am just bashing my head against a brick wall here. Thanks for once again selectively reading my post and completely ignoring my whole point.



All I can recommend is checking out the thread entitled "A matter of perspective", and the subsequent results of that poll. Even your own pro-EE types are now chipping in on how pointless that one is. That thread and poll is just one of many examples here of how this forum not only allows, but actively encourages people to post biased garbage about how terrible NZ is without needing to be in any way FACTUAL, INFORMATIVE or HELPFUL. See appledragon and EuropeanImmigrant's other posts for more of the same. What the hell is the point?